This is Liu Cheng-de, a Chen taichichuan stylist, doing some excellent stand up grappling — otherwise known as qinna. Several things to notice here:
1. He doesn’t wait for an opening — he creates one. This flies in the face of what some believe is taijiquan, but so it goes I guess.
2. He has a deep range of technique so that no matter what the partner does, Liu has an answer. This gives him total control.
3. He has good sticking and listening skills to sense when and how his partner is going to move.
4. The partner doesn’t have to make huge movements for Liu to make his stuff work. He has excellent control of small angles.
These four things being shown in this clip are no accident because they are all related.
People who don’t do any martial techniques in their push hands are missing out on all the benefits you see here. If someone doesn’t attack, how can you practice defense? But if offense isn’t part of an “internal art,” then how are you going to practice defense? You won’t. Why can’t more people see this?
How will you practice listening skill if someone doesn’t do something to “listen to”?
I’m usually surprised by the response that this clip gets when it’s brought up on discussion boards. People seem like they’ve never seen anything like this before.
Which leads to another question: if people aren’t working with material like what is shown in the clip, then just what are people doing when they push hands?
This clip is also good for aikido people IMO. Notice that Liu doesn’t require big movements on the part of the uke to make his stuff work. In fact, Liu can attack with his stuff.
Food for thought.
11 responses so far ↓
1 Iskendar // Nov 21, 2007 at 2:09 am
I love this clip: the joint locks are quick, small and used more often as balance-breakers than as the prolonged holds or pins you see in aikido or jujutsu. He integrates them nicely with strikes as well. Great stuff.
As to the people who claim IMA are not for attacking: buncha twits if you ask me. Of course they’re better suited for defense, so’s everything else, a well-prepared defender always holds the advantage, despite the lunacy of some WWI generals. Though a good attacker can reverse the roles by drawing out a lesser skilled defender. That’s what makes it interesting.
2 Brennan Cleveland // Nov 21, 2007 at 2:25 am
I have always been a little surprised at how similar freestyle wrestling and tai chi really are in application. They both rely (at the highest levels) on a highly developed level of touch sensitivity, to detect the opponents momentum and balance changes. Many wrestlers also make use of whole body power in many of the takedown techniques, and in this respect it can resemble hsing-i chuan. Come to think of it, there are several techniques that can look exactly like pi chuan from hsing-i (the ‘ankle pick’ and ‘knee tap’ specfically).
The thing that makes it surprising is that the training approach of a wrestler and tai chi fighter couldnt be more different, yet they arrive at a very similar destination. Cool.
A basic example of the knee tap and ankle pick can be found here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=B8bWW38irMYC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=wrestling+knee+pick+takedown&source=web&ots=hQcyB4iCqA&sig=SdmJ1xuMpqfbf37DZ-qDa1Unb_A#PPA85,M1
Brennan
3 Renli // Nov 21, 2007 at 9:47 am
I know it’s a cliche but there are many levels to this sort of thing. The way I was taught we just practiced the basic circle with one hand until we were familiar with it. We also did the second version of this which was somewhat up and down to the neck/head and waist. We also studied how to interchange between them if neccessary. Then we slowly started experimenting with taking the partner out of those circles (and what that felt like on the opposite end). What I picked up from this is that it was a progression. It wasn’t possible to practice martial techniques or “create opportunities” unless you had a basic understanding of the sensitivity of the circle.
So when I see this, I am wondering where Liu’s partners basic circle is. What Liu Cheng-de does and your four observations are very interesting, because of the implied understanding between you, me, Liu and his partner as tai chi stylists who study push hands. The basic training which in fact does not try to create opportunities or take advantage of small movements is the most basic thing I would expect someone to do in push hands. In fact I would go so far as to say (based on this shared understanding) that if the reason Liu is so good is the basic training, then in this clip he is actually not trying to create opportunities at all but just going the extra mile on his partner’s exposed loss. A great example of this is the elbow at 0:15 or even the (shoulder?) at 0:10. His partner was already far out of his circle-space.
That being said the bear hug from 0:55 is a poor example of push hands. It’s ceased being about push hands by now, which only makes it easier for Liu Cheng-de who never leaves his basic training, even if he cannot layer advanced techniques on it.
In my opinion his partner should have re-set his mind and body and attempted to go along with Liu more. A prime example of this is the wrist lock at 0:36 and the follow up at 0:37. Liu’s partner clearly “allowed this to happen” what I mean by that is that he was no longer attempting to yield by this point. It’s not a comment on Liu at all, but his partner.
Tying this in with how I was taught, the transition to up and down push hands was a result of the opponent trying a certain technique, the “answer” was to perform a transitionary circle which transitioned into the 2nd form of single hand push hands. From those kinds of basic circles we studied all sorts of questions and answers, like how to deal with a strong push to the chest while ‘retreating’, etc.
And finally a comment on Liu. While his skills are obviously higher than his opponents and very interesting to behold, it does seem like it is not really neccessary to do certain things such as the aforementioned push or elbow. It is a question of style and taste, I suppose. As an academic, I point to Chen Xin’s 36 sicknesses. It is easy to point out the faults of others so just let me say I would probably do the same thing as Liu in Liu’s position. From that I assume Liu is also a humble man since he certainly realizes the same thing about himself
Ok, well, thanks for the interesting video - makes you think 
4 Rick Matz // Nov 21, 2007 at 11:23 am
Fantastic skill. This is something to aspire to. Thanks for posting it.
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6 John Kavanagh // Nov 21, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Hi all,
Great clip—BUT— what is the partner/opponent doing? Basically nothing here…he’s allowing himself be moved, he doesn’t defend, attack, respond, resist- he’s totally compliant….perhaps it’s clip to show Liu’s undoubted skils but it’s pretty much all one way traffic isn’t it? Anyone else feel the same?
7 Dave Chesser // Nov 21, 2007 at 11:00 pm
As John and Renli have pointed out, this is basically all “one way traffic.” But I think that most every time I see something like this. And my second thought every single time is: what are the students actually learning?
Are they, themselves, learning to do what the teacher is showing? I ask that because most of the time the answer is “no.” Usually the teacher is considered to have some sort of “amazing power” and he has little incentive to pass it on.
The first thing I look at when visiting teachers that supposedly have these skills is the students. If they don’t show that they are getting the material, then it’s likely time to look elsewhere.
8 Patrick Parker // Nov 22, 2007 at 2:30 am
Hey! Looks familiar. Cool stuff.
9 taijiquestion // Nov 25, 2007 at 12:18 am
Looks like good Chen, good MA to me. I think anyone learning taiji basics would be lucky to get exposed to a demo like this. It puts the focus squarely on the Martial side of things. It educates on aspects other than the flashy goal of fa-jing uproots. It shows that taiji must always keep moving, must always have another place to go, and one can easily see a bit of how the teacher always finds a place to go; and that by staying loose and relaxed.
From the push-hands demo’s that I’ve seen, the biggest problems come when two players with mediocre skills are too well-matched. That’s when you either the aimless circling with no resolution, or the schoolyard Sumo match with taiji altogether forgotten. But in this clip because the student is game and because his teacher is skilled and patient, they put on a real good exposition.
Even the bear-hug interval has a lesson. The hugger’s crotch is wide open as are other attack points, but teacher simply shows that he can’t be immobilized like this (I’m assuming it’s not just size difference, looks to me like LCD has plenty of “ox strength”) and then escapes in a smooth, strightforward manner.
When I see something like this I have to question the point of any taiji class where people aren’t “mixing it up” regularly and realistically as a basis for learning form, the philosophical aspects, the whole thing. Otherwise may as well just do zhan zhuang and meditational aspects, which is also fine. I guess I’m tired of “taiji for health”. The original health benefit was being able to defend oneself against dominance and assaults. Then you take that freedom and confidence (with humility) and build on it as far as Fate will grant you.
10 taijiquestion // Nov 25, 2007 at 12:38 am
Hah! That’s great at -1:17 when in the middle of a real tussle, student suddenly finds teacher’s hand at his throat and his lead arm simultaneously being controlled. His reaction says it all: “hey, please don’t kill me”. IMO (which is just amateur), any “martial arts” class should be including little eye-openers like this early on. These are the stakes, folks, it’s not about “bend down and pick flowers”. People get hurt in fights, duh, don’t let it be you. The throat is the Great Equalizer of personal combat.
Not to ramble on, but LCD demonstrates something else that’s really great. His body is shaped like a barrel, but he’s a capable, trained athlete. Here in America we can use that lesson that ripped-ab photo models and steroid Hulks aren’t the ideal of fitness. It’s for everybody, from the mentally retarded, to little old ladies. It would be great to see some vids of little skinny guys who are taiji/IMA experts. I’d love to be a gorgeous mesomorph, but we all have to work with what we’ve got.
11 Liang // Nov 27, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Great clip . This Liu guy is very good with his skills . As to questions on ” one way traffic” , if u are able to wriggle out of it or neutralise it , then he wouldnt be the teacher , u would be his. Qinna or arm locks is a competition of response or senitivity , a competition of one”s fluidity in execution of the moves compared to your opponent .
From :
Words of a zhabao practioner , Student of master Liu rui
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